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Post by oldfart on Jun 25, 2012 21:02:00 GMT 10
Had a couple of interesting GK incidents on the weekend would appreciate opinion...
(a) ball played into penalty box by attacking team, defender traps the ball, good trap he only touched it once and it lay about half a metre from his foot. Goalie about 3m away, and nearest attacker about 7m away. Goalie moves towards the ball to pick it up. I am standing on the edge of the box and say "Don't pick up" (because in my opinion this is a pass back). Goalie cleared the ball using his feet (and the defender gave me a gobful for my trouble!). Question is - would you regard this as a breach of law 12? "...touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate"
(b) ball played into penalty box, goalie bends down and stops the ball with one hand (not a fumble or parry). Goalie then stands up, dribbles the ball once, then bends down and picks it up. Same question - is this a breach of law 12? "...touches the ball again with his hands after he has released it from his possession and before it has touched another player"
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Post by Eca on Jun 26, 2012 21:35:11 GMT 10
A couple of excellent questions Oldfart, as these type of situations often occur during a season. My answer to (a): If the keeper had picked it up I would have called play on. There was no deliberate kick to the keeper. (b) No breach again. The keeper does not have control of the ball and is open to be tackled by an attacker. He has control of the ball when he is holding it in his hands or when the ball is between his hand and the ground (or his hand and his body). From your description it appears he does not have control of the ball. I have a question on goal keeper technical fouls, lets call it it (c) (c) The ball is deliberately headed back by a defender to his keeper, we all agree okay. Same if the defender uses his chest, all okay. What about if the defender deliberately kicks the ball back to the keeper using his knee? Foul or no foul?
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Post by JD on Jun 26, 2012 23:38:32 GMT 10
For a) I do not think the referee should tell the players not to pick up the ball as that is unfair to the attacking team who would have received an IFK.
From the scenario given, I believe it was not a deliberate kick to the goalkeeper and so I would have said he could pick it up.
As you received a gobful from the defender it seems that you should have issued a caution for dissent at the next stoppage.
For b) The additional instructions in the LOTG indicate that control is there if deliberately touching the ball but not from a save.
So, you say it was not a parry, but not a fumble or accidental knock either.
So, it seems to me that this was therefore deliberate or at least in the LOTG it was deliberate and so worth an IFK to the attacking team from the place where the GK touched the ball for the 2nd time with his hands.
For c) I do not think you can kick something with your knee so it is not deliberately kicked back. You could knee something with your knee so I believe that is ok to do, so long as it is not a deliberate trick to circumvent the law. Usually a deliberate trick is to kick it up to your head and then head it back though.
So, ok, play on.
Also, law 12 cautions for unsporting behaviour actually mention that a deliberate trick to then use the knee would result in a caution, so under scenario c, still ok and play on.
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Post by Eca on Jun 28, 2012 22:29:53 GMT 10
b) from oldfart's description, I am assuming the ball is played into the penalty box by an attacker and the keeper has made a save. If he doesn’t bend down and stop the ball with his hand it may lead to a goal so he's made a save by stopping the ball with his hand. He hasn't got control of the ball as yet so he is entitled to stand up and dribble the ball and pick it up inside the penalty box.
c) definition of kick is strike at something using a foot or feet. So using your knee, thigh and/or shin are all ok, play on.
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Post by fairplay on Jun 29, 2012 14:35:59 GMT 10
I have discussed all these points on other forums the, in summary:
a) No need to tell the keeper "don't touch t". If s/he touches it play on but be mindful of the fact that the team may be using this as a ruse to circumvent the spirit of the LOTG. As you go past the keeper quietly tell him/her that you don't want to see that again or something to that effect. And if it happens again the its a caution and an IDFK as for the LOTG guidelines. Incidentally, I would use the word "No Hands" rather than "don't pick it up". Its shorter and clearer. And would only do it for lower grade AA games or junior games. At higher levels the keepers should know and if they don't they shouldn't take the risk anyway.
b) Have to be there and see it. From the OP i'd say he cant touch it again. Remember that as soon as the ball is in between the goalie's hand and any surface (one assumption) then s/he can not be challenged so the control (and 6 second) begins. Even if it was in the air when it was stopped, from the OP it sounds like s/he could have easily held on to the ball but "deliberately did not hold on to it". To me that is a parry. And what makes this decision easier is that s/he started dribbling it rather picking it up. As i said its a "you have to be there" call. Again the level of the game needs to be taken into account as well. On this same point, the difference (if any) between "possession" and "control" is not very clear in the LOTG regarding goal keepers.
c) Its an easy decision. Play on. A kick has to be with the foot. While the knee is a part of the leg it is not part of the foot. What would make this a harder decision is if it was hit by the shin (particularly the lower part).
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Post by oldfart on Jul 12, 2012 21:01:29 GMT 10
Incident (a) was 35-1.
Incident (b) was super league res.
So they should know better! cheers
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